Curse

Pyro maniac · Dec 05, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

[skill]Blinding Surge[/skill][skill]Lightning Hammer[/skill][skill]Auspicious Incantation[/skill]

Painbringer · Dec 05, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. Fevered Dreams appears promising. But, you can't co-opt the rest of the team's builds to make it work. (Or, rather, if you require a cross-team synergy, your X builds taken as a unit must meet the same standard of "good" as compared to any other unit of X synergized builds that I'm asking for from a single build.) 10 AoE degen doesn't compare with a necro unless you can do it in two non-elite slots. AoE deep would is niiiice, but it alone is not enough to justify a place on the team. Come up with something that reliably puts down AoE deep wound plus other A-list conditions like daze, blind, and weaken (in AoE) and then we'd have a build worthy of its spot on any team.

(Apropos of the above, A Fevered Dreams Me/E with skills like blinding surge, enervating charge, shell shock, technobabble, and "finish him" might do the trick, IF the energy load could be managed.)
[/list]

No synergy needed when you can do it yourself (In PVE only of course)

Ok here is a build for fevered dreams it applies poison, bleeding, cracked armor, and deep wound. It is best to take a hench necro with. Let them hex first. If you hex a hex removal skill can be used right after you apply yours. The monster AI can tear your hex off very fast. So cover your hexes. In an ideal non hex removal area in PVE (Do the following Cast poison tip and barbed arrows now cast fevered dreams followed by shrinking and accumulated pain fire arrow and cast shatter delusion on target) PVE monsters ball up and will die very quickly. You do need all expansions and the new Eye of the North to get all the skills. If energy is a problem cast all spells with caster weapons then right before Fire switch to a bow.

[skill]Fevered Dreams[/skill] [skill]Shrinking armor[/skill] [skill]Accumulated pain[/skill] [skill]Shatter Delusions[/skill] [skill]Poison Tip Signet[/skill] [skill]Barbed Arrows[/skill] [skill]Troll Unguent[/skill] [skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Skills that tags do not work

Shrinking Armor
5 energy / 1 cast / 8 recharge
Hex Spell. For 10 seconds, target foe suffers from -1...3 Health degeneration. When this Hex ends, that foe has Cracked Armor for 5...17 seconds.

Poison Tip Signet
1 cast / 6 recharge
For 60 seconds, your next attack also inflicts Poison for 8...14 seconds.

Mesmer/Ranger
Your choice on point distribution
Illusion
Marksmanship
Wilderness Survival
Domination

Wahoo · Dec 06, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Illusion Magic: 9+1
Domination: 11+2+1
Inspiration Magic: 8+1
Fast Casting: 8+1

Domination Shutdown, in two styles
[skill]distortion[/skill][skill]psychic distraction[/skill][skill]blackout[/skill][skill]channeling[/skill][skill]physical resistance[/skill][skill]arcane conundrum[/skill][skill]wastrel's worry[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

[skill]distortion[/skill][skill]psychic distraction[/skill][skill]blackout[/skill][skill]channeling[/skill][skill]elemental resistance[/skill][skill]Arcane Conundrum[/skill][skill]wastrel's worry[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

These builds make full use of the Mesmer's ability to shutdown casters *unconditionally* (read, without landing attacks like a Ranger's Broadhead arrow or interrupting like Concussion Shot) using the strengths of the Psychic Distraction elite and Blackout. In two flavors, this build can tackle groups of elementalists, decrease casting time, and effectively neuter targets that would normally wipe groups (read: elementalist bosses). For added disruption, consider replacing skillslot 7 or 8 with Diversion.

Bonus points: When combined with Prodigy's Insignias, minimum AL approaches 75 - which provides effective damage mitagation on attacks passing through Distortion's blocks. With the stance active, the AL is even more pronounced, as the shutdown mesmer's armor approaches upwards of 100AL (nearly halving damage from that source, respectively).

If you really want to split hairs, consider bringing the Asura PvE skill "Air of Superiority," which offers a passive bonus on every death.

Give this build a shot - you can vary it a number of ways and it's much more interesting than a Marksmanship ranger.

I'll claim my 10k now, thanks.

Terraban · Dec 06, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wahoo

Illusion Magic: 9+1
Domination: 11+2+1
Inspiration Magic: 8+1
Fast Casting: 8+1

Domination Shutdown, in two styles
[skill]distortion[/skill][skill]psychic distraction[/skill][skill]blackout[/skill][skill]channeling[/skill][skill]physical resistance[/skill][skill]arcane conundrum[/skill][skill]wastrel's worry[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

[skill]distortion[/skill][skill]psychic distraction[/skill][skill]blackout[/skill][skill]channeling[/skill][skill]elemental resistance[/skill][skill]Arcane Conundrum[/skill][skill]wastrel's worry[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

These builds make full use of the Mesmer's ability to shutdown casters *unconditionally* (read, without landing attacks like a Ranger's Broadhead arrow or interrupting like Concussion Shot) using the strengths of the Psychic Distraction elite and Blackout. In two flavors, this build can tackle groups of elementalists, decrease casting time, and effectively neuter targets that would normally wipe groups (read: elementalist bosses). For added disruption, consider replacing skillslot 7 or 8 with Diversion.

Bonus points: When combined with Prodigy's Insignias, minimum AL approaches 75 - which provides effective damage mitagation on attacks passing through Distortion's blocks. With the stance active, the AL is even more pronounced, as the shutdown mesmer's armor approaches upwards of 100AL (nearly halving damage from that source, respectively).

If you really want to split hairs, consider bringing the Asura PvE skill "Air of Superiority," which offers a passive bonus on every death.

Give this build a shot - you can vary it a number of ways and it's much more interesting than a Marksmanship ranger.

I'll claim my 10k now, thanks.

That is a horrible build dude....at least for PvE.

Wahoo · Dec 06, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

That is a horrible build dude....at least for PvE.

If you've got a counter-argument, feel free to make it. Otherwise, a one sentence response without a back-up claim makes you come off as ignorant.

Edit: I shouldn't have bothered to reply to that. From the looks of your previous posts, all you do is shit on other people's threads.

Ensign · Dec 06, 2007, 01:36 AM // 01:36

My feeling on PvE Mesmers is that, in general, they're only as good as removal is going to be. If hex removal, enchantment removal, and interrupts are going to be valuable, then Mesmers are going to be valuable; if they are not, then Mesmers are stuck playing second fiddle. Signet of Illusion guys are cute, and certainly aren't liabilities on a team, but they don't contribute anything that other characters already do.

Basically, when Hex Eater Vortex is amazing Mesmers are great; when HEV is dead, PvE Mesmers are a waste.

A bar I like, without touching PvE skills, goes something like:

Hex Eater Vortex
Shatter Enchantment
Cry of Frustration
Empathy
Frustration
Power Spike
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Resurrection Signet

Cry of Pain is also good. Empathy is strong but is like Spiteful; it's just some incidental damage on non-essential targets. It's efficient and speeds things up but not really essential. HEV, Cry of Frustration, and Shatter Enchantment are the best spells available in a general sense. I've been liking Frustration quite a bit, even at a moderate (10) spec; it lasts a long time and contributes a lot of damage onto a shut down target, comboing particularly well with Daze.

But it's all about HEV. If your melee is getting hexed, the combination of AoE damage, enchantment removal, and hex removal is phenomenal.

Terraban · Dec 06, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wahoo

If you've got a counter-argument, feel free to make it. Otherwise, a one sentence response without a back-up claim makes you come off as ignorant.

Edit: I shouldn't have bothered to reply to that. From the looks of your previous posts, all you do is shit on other people's threads.

It does no damage, and all it does is interrupt.

And I don't shit on other peoples threads, only morons.

Chthon · Dec 06, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

Ok here is a build for fevered dreams it applies poison, bleeding, cracked armor, and deep wound.

I'm not too keen on the poison and bleeding. It's too easy to get AoE degen from other sources a a lower resource cost. Cracked armor may be worth it. While it's clearly not the "new deep wound" that Izzy seems to think it is, it might be potent on an AoE basis. I'm not so fond of shrinking armor as the vector though. The delay and extra energy cost of shattering it is inconvenient. I'd almost rather use weaken armor (gogo fast casting) or shell shock if they were available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wahoo

[skill]distortion[/skill][skill]psychic distraction[/skill][skill]blackout[/skill][skill]channeling[/skill][skill]physical resistance[/skill][skill]arcane conundrum[/skill][skill]wastrel's worry[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

That is a horrible build dude....at least for PvE.

Yes, that is a horrible build I'm afraid. I have no desire to sacrifice all my energy, damage, and utility just to accomplish the same one-target shutdown a ranger can accomplish with Broadhead Arrow. And spamming WW isn't exactly huge damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Basically, when Hex Eater Vortex is amazing Mesmers are great; when HEV is dead, PvE Mesmers are a waste.

I'm definitely going to file that build somewhere, even if it doesn't get me out of second-fiddle status for most of PvE.

If I end up with a collection of totally different situational builds rather than one all-around build that can be tweaked situationally, this build will get a share of the reward money. Now for a build that excels when HEV is dead...

Winterclaw · Dec 06, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

[skill]Mantra of Inscriptions[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Signet of Judgment[/skill][skill]Bane Signet[/skill][skill]Castigation Signet[/skill][skill]Signet of Rage[/skill][skill]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill] Res skill

Knight O Cydonia · Dec 06, 2007, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Energy Surge
Empathy
Backfire
Guilt
Cry Of Pain
Power Drain
Necrosis
Res / Finish Him!

Interrupts, spammable damage, armour ignoring AoE, energy management all rolled into one.

Moloch Vein · Dec 06, 2007, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Well...

First of all, me and Chthon frequently speak in-game. Thus I would like to void any claim to a reward were I eligible for one.

Second, I have many times claimed that mesmers are almost completely unnecessary as a primary class in PvE. I haven't really changed that opinion.

I'll still take a shot at the task.

I feel in order to create a build superior to any other class for PvE a mesmer must take his primary attribute into account, as well as a secondary class. Otherwise, it's too easy to pose the question "alright, what about running this on an Ele with twice the energy or a Necro with vastly superior energy management?"

I'm also not going to use any PvE skills since their effectiveness is linked to grinding. I don't like that.

Mesmer/Elementalist

Fevered Dreams - Deep Freeze - Accumulated Pain
Blinding Flash - Enervating Charge
Maelstrom
Glyph of Lesser Energy
<Optional>

Illusion Magic 12 Fast Casting 9 Air Magic 9

Result:
AoE wide Weakness, Blind, Deep Wound
AoE wide 66% movement decrease
AoE wide spell shutdown

Performs better than an Elementalist at the given job because the casting time for Deep Freeze and Maelstrom is substantially reduced.

Damage from Deep Freeze and Maelstrom is an afterthought. Exhaustion from Maelstrom is manageable.

Estic · Dec 06, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

This is based on a reply in the thread I posted earlier by chriskarp so you can donate the 10k (if this is what you are looking for) to him if he wants it and you can get hold of him.

Fevered Dreams
Shrinking armor
Accumulated Pain
Drain Delusions
Glyph of immolation
Steam
Auspicious incantation/GoLE/Ether signet
"Technobabble"

Attributes:
Illusion 10+1+2 (or +3 if you run a superior rune)
Fire magic 8
Water magic 8
Fast Casting 8+1
Inspiration 7+1

That's deep wound, blind, burning, cracked armor and dazed in a short period of time. Energy management might be a problem, you don't pack a res and your attributes are quite widespread. But the hexes last long enough, the same goes for most conditions. A problem might be that dazed does not work on the boss directly and that duration of dazed in comparison to recharge is not very good. Even with a lot of Asuran points.

Edit: As far as using the primary is concerned, FD is a 2 sec cast, as is AC. This is important because you can now apply enough conditions to spread around before the target dies (which should be pretty quick).

Cebe · Dec 06, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. Since i see some folks forgetting it, please bear in mind that I am looking for a build that performs its role at least as well as any other class could perform that role:

For direct damage builds, remember that you have to match the DPS of SF eles and their ilk. Neither flare spam nor echo-ESurge comes close.
For curse damage builds, remember that you have to match the DPS on the (un)holy trinity of SS + Barbs + MoP. Empathy alone doesn't come close.
For melee-shutdown builds, remember that both warders and curse necros reduce incoming melee damage by 50%+ on an AoE basis; you need to match that.
For Interruption builds, remember that rangers can hand out daze, disable skills, pay less than 10e per interrupt, and recharge their interrupts fast enough to leave room on the bar for significant damage dealing; you need to match that.

I believe the point Avarre was trying to make in his State of the Mesmer thread is that it is not as efficient as other classes at fighting PvE monsters.

Yes, Mesmer is a lovely class to play, and it is fun to play, but I really think you aught to get this "I need my mesmer to be as good as any other character" line of thought out of your head.

That being said, there are a couple of places I find a Mesmer particularly useful. One such place is the Gate of Pain in Elona. A Power Block Mesmer can effectively shut down one Dryder in a group of 2, and seriously disrupt the second, stopping a lot of damage. Mesmers work in PvE...but most of the time they are surpassed by other classes who, frankly, do the job better.

erfweiss · Dec 06, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I believe the point Avarre was trying to make in his State of the Mesmer thread is that it is not as efficient as other classes at fighting PvE monsters.

Yes, Mesmer is a lovely class to play, and it is fun to play, but I really think you aught to get this "I need my mesmer to be as good as any other character" line of thought out of your head.

That being said, there are a couple of places I find a Mesmer particularly useful. One such place is the Gate of Pain in Elona. A Power Block Mesmer can effectively shut down one Dryder in a group of 2, and seriously disrupt the second, stopping a lot of damage. Mesmers work in PvE...but most of the time they are surpassed by other classes who, frankly, do the job better.

QFT. There are some places that Mesmers really help out. I run a Me/P specifically for Abbadon, for example.

However, you're asking a support class character to outdo the damage of a pure damage dealer. That isn't going to happen.

Also, to put in a note about the SOI/Vanguard thing to the OP: Don't knock it until you try it. Sure, it's a gimmick build. However, since Painbringer's build and one I posted on a few threads both use arcane mimicry, you don't HAVE to use a summon (other than the Sins). It's purely for fun and entertainment, after all. It's PvE.

Example: Warband of Brothers, 2nd level. I dropped a full power Searing heat and a Sandstorm (stolen from Herta) on 20 Charr with the Sins as my cover/distraction. Needless to say, 20 quickly killed Charr. What helps is they absorb the damage and it doesn't have any effect on your team if they die.

Now, sure, if I want a 2nd Flesh golem, that's fine too. It's flexible.

Chthon · Dec 06, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I believe the point Avarre was trying to make in his State of the Mesmer thread is that it is not as efficient as other classes at fighting PvE monsters.... I really think you [ought] to get this "I need my mesmer to be as good as any other character" line of thought out of your head.

1. For future reference, I'm not a big Avarre fan. I think he tends to be very, very wrong at least as often as he is very, very right, and I find his manner often somewhat unpleasant in either case. Prefacing a comment with "Avarre says,..." is generally not an effective way to convince me of your point.

2. Since that post was made, Avarre himself has repudiated the holy trinity paradigm that post was based on and now worships the duality -- something I find, in some ways, brilliant; in other ways, terribly silly; and, in most ways, tangential to the topic of this post. I think Avarre would probably say that the PvE mesmer is just as useless under the duality paradigm as under the trinity paradigm, but one really should check up on that before citing his old posts.

3. I very strongly suspect that Avarre was thoroughly correct in the post you cited. It may very well be the case that, in PvE, there's nothing worth doing that another class can't do better than a mesmer. Is that not what I said my impression was when I began this thread? However,...

4. ... So what? Not unlike Pascal, I have nothing to gain by accepting the inherent inferiority of mesmers, and nothing to lose by hoping to find a "good" build. Even if this thread fails to produce a single build (or collection of conditional builds) that meets my criteria, by challenging the mesmer community to reach for one, it may still produce the best builds one can manage with a PvE mesmer. As the obnoxious, saccharine (and yet somehow very mesmer-like) cliche goes: If we aim for the moon and miss, we may yet hit the stars.

Innuendo · Dec 06, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Here is the main build I like to use.

Me/E

Overload
Wastrel's Demise
Backfire
Empathy
Cry of Pain
Energy Tap
Glyph of Renewal (E)
Rez

GoR gives you many hex combinations, get a substantial Energy return, or do significant damage with CoP.

For Illusion (I don't run this very often anymore)

Me/*

Power Return
Power Drain
Energy Tap
Shrinking Armor
Conjure Phantasm
Clumsiness
Ineptitude
Rez

Painbringer · Dec 06, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by erfweiss

QFT. There are some places that Mesmers really help out. I run a Me/P specifically for Abbadon, for example.

However, you're asking a support class character to outdo the damage of a pure damage dealer. That isn't going to happen.

Also, to put in a note about the SOI/Vanguard thing to the OP: Don't knock it until you try it. Sure, it's a gimmick build. However, since Painbringer's build and one I posted on a few threads both use arcane mimicry, you don't HAVE to use a summon (other than the Sins). It's purely for fun and entertainment, after all. It's PvE.

Example: Warband of Brothers, 2nd level. I dropped a full power Searing heat and a Sandstorm (stolen from Herta) on 20 Charr with the Sins as my cover/distraction. Needless to say, 20 quickly killed Charr. What helps is they absorb the damage and it doesn't have any effect on your team if they die.

Now, sure, if I want a 2nd Flesh golem, that's fine too. It's flexible.

I agree with you

To the OP

Arcane Mimicry –Let’s say your friend is running Blinding Surge or Searing Flames or even Spiteful Spirit or even a healing spell. You can have the same max leveled spell on your bar for 20 seconds. (Because of Signet of Illusion) Very Powerful if you think about it. Signet of illusion is a crazy skill that allows you to make some Wacky but effective skill combos. Example = I kept a Monk alive that was being tag teamed in RA for about 5 minutes While the rest of my team killed them (Restoration and Signet of Illusions)

And the earlier mention of using Signet of Illusion with a Minion Master build I personally would not want to (no energy return from death) and in PVE… at least higher level PVE You will be out of energy and minions very quickly. Flesh Golem is just a dmg shield, Vanguard sins DMG Absorber and a spiking machine X 2

I could give you more builds. Mesmer is one of those classes that you can try almost anything with (although not as powerful as others still powerful if used correctly)

Fast Casting is a complement to all spell casters professions

Wahoo · Dec 06, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

Fast Casting is a complement to all spell casters professions

My only hesistation in mentioning our primary attribute is the fact that it's effectively obsolete with the introduction of a consumable that *every profession can use* that mimics our "unique" ability. (Essence of Celerity)

If that's not a slap-in-the-face to mesmers, then I don't know what is.

Coloneh · Dec 06, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Mesmers are not as good at anything as any other profession in PvE. sorry, its a PvP class. your not going to find a build that is better than another profession.

Ensign · Dec 06, 2007, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Well the perspective I've come to have goes something like this.

The bars a clear majority of the community seem to prefer are of the 'one trick, build the combo then push buttons and win' variety. There's a love of Searing Flames, of Dual Attunements with Rodgort's Invocation; of Arcane Echo / Spiteful Spirit, Minion armies, Splinter / Barrage, and other one-good-dimension builds that can be used to brute force all of PvE. You see it in this thread as well, with Ebon Vanguard Echosins and Fevered Dreams bars. Nothing against that playstyle, it's popular and well-suited for the low- to mid-tier playerbase, and performs well enough even through the hardest content.

Mesmers do not perform well under that style of play. The Mesmer trick builds are as minimally functional yet forgettable as you think they are. Mesmers simply do not have the brute force, 'mash on this skill' options the other classes do.

If you treat them with a toolbox perspective (as you can any other caster), then they do ok. They don't have any good button mashing options, but have plenty of strong skills that can be used to piece together a bar. There's some incidental damage in there, Energy Surge, Mistrust and Wandering Eye, that are worth bringing attributes permitting; a few sticky hexes do reasonably well as well (Cry of Frustration and Arcane Conundrum are the best of them; Backfire and Empathy are efficient damage but on non-essential targets. The best skills are removals - Hex Eater Vortex (and Expel Hexes, though the former is much better if you're speccing Dom), Shatter Enchantment, Cry of Frustration, Cry of Pain. You get this clear problem then; Mesmers can be minimally effective 'filler' characters in areas where removal doesn't matter; Empathy and Backfire do some slow damage while Mistrust, ESurge, and Cry of Pain as a nuke pull their weight as straight AoE damage. It's not even all that bad of a damage dealer to be perfectly honest - it just isn't anything special either. You're putting a lot of work in to do something that's arguably on par with what a Searing Flames guy will do, maybe better, maybe worse, but not much else. But when Hex Eater Vortex, Shatter Enchantment, and Cry of Frustration are hitting their potential, Mesmers are more than pulling their weight.

I don't think Mesmers are all that good outside of Eye of the North. Most of the mobs are simply bad, and are a threat through brute force alone. The skillsets on EotN mobs are much better in general though, and there's a lot more value in removals. Hex Eater in previous chapters probably takes off Conjure Phantasm, Life Siphon, or Parasitic Bond; in EotN you're much more likely to be getting Backfire, Reckless Haste, or something equally nasty. Shatter Enchantment hit Healing Breeze or Aura of Restoration in Prophecies; it'll knock out Aegis, Protective Spirit, or Stoneflesh Aura in Eye of the North. If you're looking for a good shake of what a Mesmer can do in PvE, I'd work my way to Eye of the North as fast as possible.